|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 12:39:25 GMT -5
Post by ZeroSaidSadly on Jun 22, 2004 12:39:25 GMT -5
There is nothing at all wrong with working to make ends meet. She is doing nothing illegal. She isnt selling drugs to innocent choir boys. She isnt killing people for profit, a la the assassins you just mentioned, she's dancing naked. There is a big difference. If it came down to the lives of you and your children, or dancing naked for money, what would you pick? Dont give me that bullshit "I dont plan on having children" evasion either. You're way too critical. where the fuck do you get this! if i was in any situation that they are in, hell yes, im sure i would! you completeley missed my point, flew right by and hit something else i wasnt even talking about. alright: ill make it real simple for you to understand my problem. My problem is NOT. NOT. with the respectable women who actually strip. Is that making it through alright? Okay, my problem, is with the people...(doin okay?) that actually go in to strip clubs, and hand over money to watch them. Did you get all that, i am upset at the treatment of these women. not with the women themselves. okay? jesus christ.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 12:40:33 GMT -5
Post by Josh on Jun 22, 2004 12:40:33 GMT -5
jesus christ has there been no femminist movement at all. that might be the single most upsetting thing ive heard on this board. Funny, the feminist movement gains more sexual freedom for women and consequently allows them to participate in activities like stripping for money.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 12:43:53 GMT -5
Post by Josh on Jun 22, 2004 12:43:53 GMT -5
where the fuck do you get this! if i was in any situation that they are in, hell yes, im sure i would! you completeley missed my point, flew right by and hit something else i wasnt even talking about. alright: ill make it real simple for you to understand my problem. My problem is NOT. NOT. with the respectable women who actually strip. Is that making it through alright? Okay, my problem, is with the people...(doin okay?) that actually go in to strip clubs, and hand over money to watch them. Did you get all that, i am upset at the treatment of these women. not with the women themselves. okay? jesus christ. These respectable women need customers to come in and watch them strip. That's how they get their money. Your view of things would run all of those women out of a job and make it hard for them to feed themselves or their families. It's all well and good for you to call every guy that goes into a strip joint a degenerate loser who objectifies women, but where would those women be without those guys? Unemployed. Or, failing that, making far less money and as a result not be able to pay for food/shelter/tuition. You have a problem with the people who are providing a livlihood for these women that you're defending.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 12:48:08 GMT -5
Post by BrightEyes05 on Jun 22, 2004 12:48:08 GMT -5
Dont condescend to me. Thats totally uncalled for and you know it. At no point whatsoever in this thread have I gotten petty, so there really is no need for you to. Chill.
Like I said, women wouldnt be able to make ends meet in the stripping industry (yes, it is an industry) without customers. Instead, they would be forced to do something quite possibly much, much worse, like prostitution, etc. There isnt a difference in the world between a man that gives money to a girl working at a diner, and a man that gives money to a girl dancing at a strip club. They are both paying for a service willingly provided to them. Whats wrong with that? I dont see the problem. You're getting indignant over nothing.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 12:55:31 GMT -5
Post by ZeroSaidSadly on Jun 22, 2004 12:55:31 GMT -5
how are they being degraded because they chose something not up to YOUR standards, because your the only fuck that seems to matter, if they choose to be treated like an object how are they loosing dignity, how is it degraded, they made the choice, and by you saying its degrading to woman, you are judging them, you are degrading them, not me oh christ. i really hope you arent this unsensible and unrespectable. i really do. hopefully its not that, and its just that you dont WANT to be against strip clubs, because, well, youre a man. ALRIGHT! #1 - "how are they being degraded because they chose something not up to YOUR standards" wow what a stupid question. you are treating them like an object. you are not respecting them as women, you are using them for having what you want. id hope that my expectations for men to respect women would be shared by more people than myself? its not about my "standards" its about what is proper treatment of a woman, and what is not. you completeley twist what i said and im not going to debate someone who cant even answer to what i actually said. #2-"because your the only fuck that seems to matter" thats right. #3-"if they choose to be treated like an object how are they loosing dignity" lol well umm.. theyd be losing the dignity of being treated like a HUMAN? instead of an object? lol #4-"how is it degraded, they made the choice" like nick said, if it came right down to it, would you rather be degraded, or save your childrens lives? just because you chose to, doesnt have anything to do with weather its degrading. #5 - "by you saying its degrading to woman, you are judging them, you are degrading them, not me" what the men do to the women IS DEGRADING. if i said, abandoning your child depresses the child, im not the one leaving the kid. therefore, im not the one depressing him/her. im bringing a problem into examination and making it evident, and obviously it needs to be done more if theres people like you still thinking its okay to degrade women. you are the one causing the problem, you are the one causing their degradation.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 13:03:27 GMT -5
Post by Josh on Jun 22, 2004 13:03:27 GMT -5
you are the one causing the problem, you are the one causing their degradation. You are the one attempting to take away the livlihood of these women. If you really cared about the plight of these strippers, you wouldn't be taking a go at a paying customer. I understand what you're saying about women being objectified, but to be honest, they choose it, so it's on their backs. It's not the customers' fault. If women don't want to be objectified, they can easily choose not to enter the stripping profession. They know what it entails when they go into it. These women are perfectly capable of getting a job at the restaurant next door to the strip joint. But there's obviously a reason they choose not to.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 13:15:09 GMT -5
Post by ZeroSaidSadly on Jun 22, 2004 13:15:09 GMT -5
Infinite Apathy: yeah, what was i thinking? these women should be falling to their knees, kissing your feet for all you've done for them! thank god for those 'degenerate losers' who are supporting our nations women! and by the way, the femmenist movement has gained women more sexual freedom, but christ if some of the people i know heard you say that femmenists are for strip clubs, well... i would love to hear what theyd have to say. femminism is trying to gain ground for women's respect and equality. not their degredation. but go ahead, id love to hear you try and argue that. and nick: im sorry if i offended you, it just gets a bit frustrating debating three men who have no idea what im talking about. alright, first off, what we started to debate, was weather strip clubs were degrading or not, somehow, you think that because they need to support their familys, it is NOT degrading to them. i did not come to discuss the economics of the industry of the exploitation of women. there are many questionable industries with moral problems in them, such as animal testing, and veganism which was mentioned in another thread. i dont think we should be scared to address questions to our morals because of economics. i strongly believe that you should fight for what is right even if it does allow some drawbacks, and id hope you would too. its like arguing that we should go blow up countries to start wars because we all get filthy rich and our economy does awesome when we're at war. but all this is besides the point. can we get back onto topic or would you agree, that it is degrading and disrespectful to throw money at a woman so she can take off her clothes for you. and anyways, you dont know how frustrating it is to be completeley ripped on two seconds after you've posted by 3 different people, numbers of different times. if i didnt care about this subject as much as i do, id say fuck it like most people here do. its pointless when what i say doesnt even get across or matter, because youre all yelling to get heard.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 13:22:23 GMT -5
Post by Josh on Jun 22, 2004 13:22:23 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to rip on anybody. In fact, I only spoke up because I was sick of how this degenerated into a bunch of name calling and people saying fuck you to everyone else.
And for what it's worth, if I was to take off my clothes and asked people to come watch, who's responsible for what happens? It's me. If I'm doing this for money, then I want as many people to come as possible, because I want their money. If nobody comes, then I get no money and I've failed at what I set out to do. These women chose to go into a profession knowing full well what goes on. If they find it degrading, then they can get the hell off the stage and do something else. Either way, I don't care. And as a sidenote, I've done nothing for these women. I already stated earlier that I don't go to strip clubs. But I really don't care who else does.
As for feminism not supporting stripping, no, I'm sure most feminists don't. But it's as a result of their actions that so many women are so easily able to enter the stripping industry.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 13:24:35 GMT -5
Post by ZeroSaidSadly on Jun 22, 2004 13:24:35 GMT -5
You are the one attempting to take away the livlihood of these women. If you really cared about the plight of these strippers, you wouldn't be taking a go at a paying customer. I understand what you're saying about women being objectified, but to be honest, they choose it, so it's on their backs. It's not the customers' fault. If women don't want to be objectified, they can easily choose not to enter the stripping profession. They know what it entails when they go into it. These women are perfectly capable of getting a job at the restaurant next door to the strip joint. But there's obviously a reason they choose not to. weve already been through why these women strip. it pays well, in less time, than any other profession that does not require credentials. Yeh, alright, i guess you're right, we should just not care, not try to change anything, keep putting our money towards their exploitation, because, hell after all they did choose it! Wait, why again did we fight for child labor laws? those children chose to go to work every damn day, they knew what it entailed, but they kept on going! so why boycott, why try to change things. they chose to do it. If you choose to do something, that doesnt make it any easier to smile on. Most people who are in these unfavorable professions, are up against a wall. as were those children. as are prostitutes. as are alot of people. so should we abandon them and let them "choose" to be exploited? if we took that whole "industries" profits, and put it to creating more jobs in cities, and providing more health care, and human services to those with their backs up against a wall, they wouldn't need to be degraded and demoralized, the actually would have, a REAL choice. not the kind of "choice" you all are talking about.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 13:31:32 GMT -5
Post by Josh on Jun 22, 2004 13:31:32 GMT -5
Children are not adults, as I'm sure you're well aware. There have to be laws to protect them. As far as that goes, most of those children didn't 'choose' to go into work every day. They were forced to by their parents. Also, they were forced to work incredibly long hours in incredibly dangerous conditions that threatened their lives. They also made next to nothing for all of that. The point of child labour was that it was cheap and easily exploitable. That's not even comparable to a woman taking off her clothes in a secure club with a security team in place to make sure none of the guys there get too free with their hands. And she's making more money in an hour than a lot of people make in a full 8 hour shift. If you're going to make an analogy, you're going to have to try a whole lot harder.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 13:40:08 GMT -5
Post by ZeroSaidSadly on Jun 22, 2004 13:40:08 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to rip on anybody. In fact, I only spoke up because I was sick of how this degenerated into a bunch of name calling and people saying fuck you to everyone else. And for what it's worth, if I was to take off my clothes and asked people to come watch, who's responsible for what happens? It's me. If I'm doing this for money, then I want as many people to come as possible, because I want their money. If nobody comes, then I get no money and I've failed at what I set out to do. These women chose to go into a profession knowing full well what goes on. If they find it degrading, then they can get the hell off the stage and do something else. Either way, I don't care. And as a sidenote, I've done nothing for these women. I already stated earlier that I don't go to strip clubs. But I really don't care who else does. well thats good, im glad you dont spend money to further womens exploitation but its sad you blame the entire thing on their "choice". can you really even call it that, when their life demands so much that they really are practically forced to do it as one of the very very few effective means of support that some women have. what i am upset about is womens treatment regarding stripping as a whole, not one woman, but all women do not deserve to go through that treatment. therefore its not a matter i would leave to "choice". The entire thing, is something i would definitley not encourage, and whenever possible, prevent. Im not saying our government should step in, what im saying is that i wish that men could get past some desire and use their intelligence that i hope they have, to realize, that no, this isnt something i want to support, that it is better to look at women with respect and dignity instead of use and desire and that its a shame that being used and exploited is what they have to do to support themselves and whomever/whatever else. that maybe, enouph real people could care about these women, truthfully, and put money into the services that could really benefit them and not help degrade them.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 13:46:24 GMT -5
Post by Josh on Jun 22, 2004 13:46:24 GMT -5
To be honest with you, the majority of women I know are just as bad as men when it comes to objectifying the other sex. All they care about is someone's looks, money, car, etc. At least the men who go to the strip club are honest about the fact that they want to see a naked woman so they have something to think about later when they're masturbating. They don't lie and tell everyone that they just want someone with a good personality and a sense of humour. The whole human race is fucking pathetic. I don't see much of a problem with women taking off their clothes for money though, if they're willing to do it. There's no gun against their heads.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 13:47:32 GMT -5
Post by ZeroSaidSadly on Jun 22, 2004 13:47:32 GMT -5
Children are not adults, as I'm sure you're well aware. There have to be laws to protect them. As far as that goes, most of those children didn't 'choose' to go into work every day. They were forced to by their parents. Also, they were forced to work incredibly long hours in incredibly dangerous conditions that threatened their lives. They also made next to nothing for all of that. The point of child labour was that it was cheap and easily exploitable. That's not even comparable to a woman taking off her clothes in a secure club with a security team in place to make sure none of the guys there get too free with their hands. And she's making more money in an hour than a lot of people make in a full 8 hour shift. If you're going to make an analogy, you're going to have to try a whole lot harder. oh hey.. also, not all those children were female. oh yeh and they all didnt dance when they worked. damn, that analogy has no use at all does it. i was trying to make a very general statement, that just because something in an industry is wrong and should be changed, doesnt mean that we cant and shouldnt try to change it if it consequently means an economic disadvantage to people. those children didnt make as much money as they did before. but - they were treated properly. if men didnt support the stripping industry those women would have to find a different job and probably make less money. but - they would then be treated properly. my point was that i dont think that that should be a major point of debate was the loss of jobs.
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 13:50:57 GMT -5
Post by Josh on Jun 22, 2004 13:50:57 GMT -5
That comparison with child labour was just pathetic. The very fact that you're going from children with no choice in the matter to consentual adult women should tell you that it was no good. Or maybe you're saying that women are no more capable of choice than a bunch of dependent kids...
|
|
|
Sex
Jun 22, 2004 13:51:02 GMT -5
Post by ZeroSaidSadly on Jun 22, 2004 13:51:02 GMT -5
To be honest with you, the majority of women I know are just as bad as men when it comes to objectifying the other sex. All they care about is someone's looks, money, car, etc. At least the men who go to the strip club are honest about the fact that they want to see a naked woman so they have something to think about later when they're masturbating. They don't lie and tell everyone that they just want someone with a good personality and a sense of humour. The whole human race is fucking pathetic. I don't see much of a problem with women taking off their clothes for money though, if they're willing to do it. There's no gun against their heads. Alright, that post's enouph for me. Im done. I give up. Yeh you wouldn't see anything wrong with women taking off their clothes for money would you. Well this is pointless and im ashamed i even tried. i have too much faith in people. I think that entire post should've been towards the very beggining of the debate though, when i hadnt already talked about every. single. thing. you just mentioned.
|
|